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re: Can't install Open Office Thursday, October 4, 2007 at 12:23 pm Posted by gewg_ (4444 messages posted) |[...]it always says that the installed files were corrupted or incomplete. |However, I tried the installer on another PC and it worked perfectly. |[...]The error messages generally contain kernell errors. | dark_lady01 Start by installing some of the updates to Windoze that were released this century. From your other post, it sounds like you'll have to go back even further than that. [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office Friday, October 5, 2007 at 9:37 am Posted by Joe Hepperle (73 messages posted) According to the OpenOffice web site, it does run on Windows98. See ... http://user-faq.openoffice.org/faq/ar01s02.html#id2812416 You may have a virus if you are getting Kernel error messages. Have you an antivirus program installed? AVG antivirus is a free, very good antivirus program available from http://www.grisoft.com if you need one. I hate to ever tell someone to reinstall Windows 98 but sometimes it is necessary. If the computer in question does not yet have important files on it, or if you can off-load them to a disk, or another partition, then reinstalling windows 98 may be the quickest way to get where you want to be. Also, OpenOffice requires JAVA (not the same thing as javascript) to be installed. JAVA is free from the SUN website if you need to download that. http://www.java.com/en/download/index.jsp Joe Hepperle [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office Friday, October 5, 2007 at 12:45 pm Posted by gewg_ (4444 messages posted) |According to the OpenOffice web site, it does run on Windows98. | Joe Hepperle Duh. That's the great thing about Open Source Software: Unlike what Windoze Weenies are used to, lock-out (especially VERSION-BASED LOCK-OUT) is a foreign concept in F/OSS. That, however, is not what was stated as a problem. **INSTALLATION** is failing. |You may have a virus if you are getting Kernel error messages. | That's true. Checking for infections is pretty much a given these days. I forgot we were talking about Windoze. |I hate to ever tell someone to reinstall Windows 98 | ...especially when UPDATING an install that is obviously WAY behind may replace any broken parts with functional bits. |Also, OpenOffice requires JAVA | Hogwash. **SOME** people may need Java to do **some** things in OOo. MANY users will never miss it. cache of http://download.openoffice.org/common/java.html ...and Java has NOTHING to do with getting it *installed*. There are even some folks who advocate for the older OOo 1.x version: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/18/1155252&threshold=5#20652999 (problems with Open Document Format in 2.x) [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office Saturday, October 6, 2007 at 2:43 pm Posted by Joe Hepperle (73 messages posted) Thanks for the assist, "gewg". I'm sure we are together on this so let's recap what we're saying. Open Office works on Windows98, according to the folks at the Open Office web site. I made this point in my previous post because a user named "gewg" had (as her only suggestion!) snidely commented that DarkLady01 had to start by installing some of the Windows98 updates "'...from this century...". But that is not a solution. The Open Office folks did not say that it only operates on Windows 98 only if you've installed "...some of the updates from this century...". Operates on Windows98 means just that... operates on Windows98 -- with or without any particular update. So, none of the updates are needed for successful operation of Open Office on a Windows98 system. None of the updates are need for successful operation of Open Office on a Windows98 system. On to the next part... Should a person download the updates and install them to "fix" a problem with being unable to install Open Office... or should a person reinstall Windows98? I suppose the answer lies in deciding which path will for sure fix the problem, and which path is just a shot-in-the-dark chance -- maybe will work, maybe won't. I'd go for the "for-sure" method. The Windows updates are only for fixing specific problems that Microsoft wants fixed. We can be reasonably sure that none of the updates from the Microsoft web site are for the purpose of fixing an Open Office installation problem. The Open Office software is direct competition for Microsoft, they aren't interested in making it easier to install. None of the Updates to Windows98 are for the purpose of fixing an installation problem with the Open Office software. We're together on this, right? Years ago when I was young, we received word that a distant cousin had been arrested for attempted murder. We always thought of him as grumpy and maybe a little backward but we could never imagine him trying to murder someone. Once we found the details of the incident, then we understood. Turns out that there were a bunch of teenagers on the street outside his house. It was dusk and getting harder to see. Someone from the crowd threw eggs at his house while he was standing out on his porch. Then an egg hit him on the side of the face. He went into his house, came out with a shotgun and popped off a few towards the crowd. Six of the kids were hospitalized. He served about five years in prison for that. Years later, as an adult, I was able to talk to him man-to-man. I asked him why he just shot into the crowd. He explained that he didn't know which specific kid it was who threw the eggs, but he thought if he just shot at the whole group he might hit whomever it was. Even then, years later, that made sense to him. I tried to reason with him that the best way was to either find the specific trouble-maker and fix that person, or call in the cops who can clear the street and specifically make sure that only the people who belong there are hanging around. He still insisted that shooting wildly into the crowd was a better solution so I left it at that. Anyway, Where were we? Oh yeah now I remember. The "gewg" person had written that DarkLady01 should install some of the updates "...from this century..." because maybe they might accidentally fix whatever may be causing the problem. I had written that a new install of Windows98 might be the solution because that would clear the hard drive and make sure that only the files that belong there are hanging around. A fresh install would eliminate any troublemakers. And it is quicker (about one hour she could be up and running) than spending three days posting on various Windows 'Help' sites asking how to solve the problem. Wouldn't you agree? It also is quicker than only "...start(ing) by downloading some of the updates from this century..." which could take up to three hours or more depending on the internet connection. A reinstall of Windows98 will fix a corrupted registry. Installing updates from this century or any other century will do nothing to fix a corrupted registry. A reinstall of Windows98 will eliminate any and all viruses. Installing updates will not eliminate any viruses. (It might limit any further damage from them but it will not fix damage already done.) And finally, Open Office needs JAVA. It is true that there is an extremely pared down version of Open Office that is missing some of the functions and it is this extremely pared down version you write about when you responded with your term, "Hogwash". I hope we're not getting nit-picky here just for the sake of "having the last word" and an attempt to be "right". There is an extremely pared down version of Open Office, missing a lot of the functionality, that is available and doesn't require JAVA. But the Standard version of Open Office, the version that may deflate a significant part of Microsoft's Office Suite profits, is the Standard version of Open Office, which requires JAVA (or more specifically, a JAVA runtime environment). So that "gewg" person is being intentionally misleading when she wrote "...and Java has NOTHING to do with getting it *installed*..." Joe Hepperle [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office Saturday, October 6, 2007 at 6:15 pm Posted by gewg_ (4444 messages posted) Joe Hepperle wrote: |[...]a user named "gewg" had (as her only suggestion!) | *his* |snidely commented | I'll concede "snidely" for the tone of the entire post. The OP's skipping over Operating Systems 101 seems quite foolish to me. |that DarkLady01 had to start by installing |some of the Windows98 updates "'...from this century...". |But that is not a solution. | Perhaps. Perhaps not. IMO, a Windoze reinstall that nukes all your tweaks is a LAST RESORT. |Operates on Windows98 means just that... operates on Windows98 | -- with or without any particular update. | The point I made was that if corruption *does* exist (a reasonable assumption), it *may* be cured by the updates. It's a long shot--but if it saves a reinstall... Either way, the updates should be downloaded and installed. |[...]updates[...]or[...]reinstall Windows98? | A false dichotomy. See "Either way" (above). |I suppose the answer lies in deciding which path will for sure fix the problem, |and which path is just a shot-in-the-dark chance | -- maybe will work, maybe won't. | We agree on the arguments, but not on what to try first. She *could* also buy a new computer. THAT would cure the problem as well. I'm looking for least-painful. BTW, WRT the way the interpreter / rendering engine on this site works: If you want to start a line with On (capitalized), it's better to put a period or hyphen before it so you don't get 4 linefeeds. http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/win98/1191707014 |I'd go for the "for-sure" method. | We'll have to agree to disagree on which should be the first-echelon effort. |None of the Updates to Windows98 are for the purpose of fixing an installation |problem with the Open Office software. We're together on this, right? | Yup. To reiterate my position: A failed install of a download that works elsewhere likely indicates a broken kernel; updates *might* cure it; nothing ventured, nothing gained. Avoid a reinstall of Windoze, if possible. |[...]a distant cousin[...]came out with a shotgun |and popped off a few towards the crowd[...] | For a minute there, I wasn't sure if you were going for *Shotgun Approach to troubleshooting* or for *crotchety old fart with a short fuse*. 8-) |I had written that a new install of Windows98 might be the solution |because that would clear the hard drive |and make sure that only the files that belong there are hanging around. | Seems to ASSuME that a lethal infection is the problem. With your invasive-surgery-first (on a whim) nature, I wouldn't want you for a physician. |A fresh install would eliminate any troublemakers. | Not using the method you specified. |And it is quicker (about one hour she could be up and running) |than spending three days posting on various Windows 'Help' sites |asking how to solve the problem. | A false dichotomy extended; my suggestion was *Give it a try*. I recommended retrieving the updates and installing them. No matter what course is eventually taken, that is *still* important for closing known exploitable holes --especially if she doesn't take the best advice of the week and dump M$IE. "OS updates" is not either/or. If it cures the kernel fault, WITHOUT a reinstall, I'd call that gravy. |A reinstall of Windows98 will fix a corrupted registry. | A valid point--which also makes an assumption. This is "Shotgun Troubleshooting" --possibly of the overkill variety--on your part this time. What you **didn't** mention to the OP is that she will have to reinstall all / most of her apps as well. (If an infection is assumed, it *will* be ALL.) |A reinstall of Windows98 will eliminate any and all viruses. | Wanna bet? Certainly not according to the method you gave. You didn't mention a **clean** install nor **repartitioning**. Without completely deleting the old partition, a boot-sector virus could be left behind . (Hear about the German company the other week that shipped product with a boot-sector virus? ...and had "Bullguard" AV installed on those units?) 8-D |And finally, Open Office needs JAVA. | The OpenOffice.org page I linked to CLEARLY says it does NOT. Folks who have never used M$Access and who will never open "Base" will likely never miss Java in OOo. I also pointed to a caveat by another user who warned of ODF problems with 2.x and recommended the older 1.x variant --which is infinitely available and has even fewer dependencies. |But the Standard version of Open Office, |the version that may deflate a significant part of Microsoft's Office Suite profits, |is the Standard version of Open Office, which requires JAVA. | Hyperbole. Almost NO ONE use M$Access--and the same for "Base". Again, MOST people will never miss Java. It all depends on WHAT YOU DO while OOo is open. Most folks also won't call the silly little bells & whistles elsewhere that "require" Java. I'm expecting Novell to very quickly kill off the JRE dependency in their fork. Before too long, that should work its way back into the trunk. [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office Monday, October 8, 2007 at 7:00 am Posted by Joe Hepperle (73 messages posted) My apologies "gewg", I really thought you were a woman. Why have you responded to my post here? I did not write for help. I'm concerned that you may not handle well being one-upped? DarkLady01 has a need for clear, understandable advice. You have already given your best shot by explaining to her that the problem she has is caused by.... ooops, sorry, I guess you didn't explain anything. Your best advice was for her to "...Start by installing some of the updates (from) ...this century." If that doesn't have "I don't know what I'm talking about, but here, try this..." written all over it, I don't know what would. You already spewed your two-cents worth of nonsense in your own little thread in this question. DarkLady01 can read your guesses, and try them if she chooses. DarkLady01 can also read my factual suggestion(s) and try them if she chooses. There is no need for us to agree, or disagree, or agree-to-disagree. You simply put your rambling nonsense in your column, and I will put my clearly-written advice and suggestions in my column. If you want to take issue with any answers I've given, feel free to do so -- but do it from your column. Or you can email me with your concerns. I'm not a bad man and I don't believe you are. I don't like Micro$oft any more than you do. But I've spent years mastering Windows98 and taking control of it. I did not give up and storm off complaining about how worthless it is... okay maybe I have complained a lot about how worthless it is... but I'm still here working IT rather than letting it work me. I'll tell you what we can agree on. If you agree to start giving good advice about how these people can fix their Win98 problem(s) and quit insisting that they give up and move to a different Operating System, I will personally bake you an apple pie (a safe one) and send it to you by Express Courier. Or two, or three if you have a big family. You choose... Joe Hepperle 109 Fleet Street West Union, Iowa USA 1 563 422-5989 kjhepperle(at)gmail(dot)com [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office -- Broken kernel Monday, October 8, 2007 at 10:22 am Posted by gewg_ (4444 messages posted) |[...]I'm concerned that you may not handle well being one-upped? |DarkLady01 has a need for clear, understandable advice[...] | Joe Hepperle | Again, I wouldn't want to have you for a physician. You seem to have a problem with the *FULL DISCLOSURE* thing. You recommended a reinstall of Windoze. You also noted (in a round-about way) that this will nuke the Registry. The part you AVOIDED saying is that ANY PROGRAM THAT MAKES CHANGES TO THE REGISTRY WHEN INSTALLED WILL HAVE TO BE RE-INSTALLED (AND RE-CONFIGURED) AND THAT ALL THE SETTINGS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE TO WINDOWS ITSELF WILL HAVE TO BE RE-DONE.[1] You seemed to say that AN INFECTION **may** be the source of the problem and that a reinstall of Windoze would clear it. AGAIN, you didn't mention the possibility that THIS MAY LEAVE BEHIND A PARTICULAR KIND OF INFECTION, so your solution was ALSO a **may** fix it. If what you *meant* to say was **Wipe the drive clean by reparitioning it then reinstalling Windoze; this will FOR SURE get any infections**, you failed to mention that EVERY PIECE OF SOFTWARE ON THE SYSTEM WILL HAVE TO BE RE-INSTALLED. THAT is what I mean by *FULL DISCLOSURE*. Most people WANT TO AVOID REINSTALLING TONS OF APPS if they can. I said that an *incremental* approach **may** achieve that. I acknowledge that my timid approach may not work and that further action may be required. Getting back to the physician metaphor: FIRST DO NO HARM. You seem to be grousing about *time invested* by the OP--but you DON'T mention the actual time that will be required to achieve what you have proposed, but instead narrowing your focus to Windoze alone. |[...]I will put my clearly-written advice and suggestions in my column[...] | For the online-jargon-impaired: A single item under a topic is called a "post". The sum of all the posts under that topic is called a "thread". [1] I would think that people who go about advocating Windoze reinstalls would include in their advice an admonition to **IMAGE that drive after the intallation** and keep that duplicate of the drive's image in a safe place for the NEXT time this happens as it pre-supposes *routine* infections via poor security via PEBKAC. [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office -- Broken kernel Monday, October 8, 2007 at 10:23 pm Posted by dark_lady01 (7 messages posted) Thank you anyway to both of your suggestions. At the end of everything, I just reformatted the darn thing and reinstalled everything. Somehow, the registry must have been corrupted but I am up and running well now. ^_^ [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Is Doctor Ballmer in the house? Tuesday, October 9, 2007 at 3:23 am Posted by Joe Hepperle (73 messages posted) Wow "gewg", I am saddened. Here I was busy peeling apples. And I had a "pick-up" request put in to Fed Ex for tomorrow... I guess I can cancel the Fed Ex and put the apples away? Let's reason together. You wrote, >>You seem to have a problem with the *FULL DISCLOSURE* thing Let's see if this helps you. Full disclosure starts with what I actually wrote. "You may have a virus if you are getting Kernel error messages. Have you an antivirus program installed? AVG antivirus is a free, very good antivirus program available from http://www.grisoft.com if you need one." "I hate to ever tell someone to reinstall Windows 98 but sometimes it is necessary. If the computer in question does not yet have important files on it, or if you can off-load them to a disk, or another partition, then reinstalling windows 98 may be the quickest way to get where you want to be." Now, let's juxtapose what I wrote with your whin complaints. Joe wrote, "You may have a virus if you are getting Kernel error messages. Have you an antivirus program installed?" "gewg" complaint is, "You seemed to say that AN INFECTION **may** be the source of the problem and that a reinstall of Windoze would clear it." Honestly "gewg", that is garbled nonsense. It looks like I wrote, "Have you an antivirus program...?" Let's look further in the interest of Full Disclosure. Joe wrote, "If the computer in question does not yet have important files on it... ...then reinstalling... may be the quickest way..." "gewg" complaint is, "...The part you AVOIDED saying is that ANY PROGRAM THAT MAKES CHANGES TO THE REGISTRY WHEN INSTALLED WILL HAVE TO BE RE-INSTALLED (AND RE-CONFIGURED) AND THAT ALL THE SETTINGS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE TO WINDOWS ITSELF WILL HAVE TO BE RE-DONE." Honestly "gewg", that is garbled nonsense. It looks like I wrote, "If...(it) does not yet have important files on it..." Let's look further in the interest of Full Disclosure. Joe wrote, "I hate to ever tell someone to reinstall Windows 98..." "gewg" complaint is, "Most people WANT TO AVOID REINSTALLING TONS OF APPS if they can..." Honestly "gewg", I'm not sure why you complain here. It seems we are agreeing? You went further, with the comments that I had supposedly, "...noted (in a round-about way) that this will nuke the Registry..." and that you "...wouldn't want to have (Joe) for a physician". What I proposed was worse than that, "gewg"! What I proposed was equivalent to throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and then make a new baby... one that will act right. As far as comparing computer repair with physicians and the practice of medicine, we all got a laugh from that one. They are two separate things and can't be intelligently compared. Like trying to compare apples to oranges. As a demonstration, let's see how any person would fare if a Micro$soft certified computer repair shop started a sideline business as physicians. MICRO$OFT NURSE: Doctor Balmer, patient is complaing about his arm. Says it hurts and he can't use it. DOCTOR BALLMER: Okay nurse -- have X-Rays taken and report back. MICRO$OFT NURSE: Doctor Ballmer, the X-Rays are back and nothing appears to be wrong. DOCTOR BALLMER: Hmmm... Nurse, is your arm working good? MICRO$OFT NURSE: Why yes Doctor it is. I work out at the gym and my arm is in tip-top shape. DOCTOR BALLMER: Okay nurse. The X-Rays were inconclusive so I can't tell if the problem is the patient's arm, or if it is just in his head. MICRO$OFT NURSE: What do you propose doctor? DOCTOR BALLMER: Well, according to the Micro$oft A+ certification manual, if we can't tell whether the problem is hardware or software, we are advised to swap-out the suspect part with a known-good part. MICRO$OFT NURSE: You're scaring me Doctor Ballmer... what are you proposing? DOCTOR BALLMER: Well nurse, since you have a known-good arm, we'll remove your arm, and the patient's arm, and swap them. If the patient no longer has problems, using your good arm, then we'll know his arm is the actual culprit. But if he still is experiencing problems after the swap-out, then we'll know that the problem was all in his head. MICRO$OFT NURSE: Huh? ***(N.B. computer repair technique taken from page 1053 of the A+Certification Exam Guide by Michael Myers) See how computer repair and the practice of medicine are two separate things? What is good technique for computer repair does not fit into any practice-of-medicine scenario. On the other side, we don't want our physicians fixing our computers either. If that were to occur, we would start seeing wooden blocks (prosthetic devices) replacing our failed hard drives. We would see chunks of motherboard missing because they were "cut out" as a solution to the last virus infection. Nope -- they don't mix and you can't intelligently compare them. Moving on... Thanks for the online-jargon lesson. As a return favor, I'll give you an English lesson. COLUMN noun (Merriam-Webster) 1 a: a vertical arrangement of items printed or written on a page c: an accumulation arranged vertically We HAVE to use English. We don't have to use jargon. One is required, the other is optional. Keep in mind that what we write here should be understandable to everyone -- from the computer novice, to the computer savvy, to the computer burn-out. And finally, I don't admonish anyone to "image" their hard drive. I do advise it sometimes. But I have never advised anyone to "image" their hard drive as a solution to get Open Office to install. Do you think that is the solution? Should I start advising to "image" your hard drive if you have problems installing Open Office? <3 <3 Joe Hepperle [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office -- Broken kernel Sunday, October 28, 2007 at 2:55 pm Posted by Ed (741 messages posted) If the problem recurs, to recover from a simple registry corruption boot to DOS (using a bootable floppy disk, e.g. from http://www.bootdisk.com) and type the following at the C:\ prompt - SCANREG /RESTORE Note the space before the forward slash in this command. Follow the on-screen instructions, and try to restore the *oldest* backup of the registry (they're listed by date) as that's the one with the best chance of being from before the problem arose. By default Windows keeps 5 backup copies of the Windows Registry, so that you can go back to before the problem arose. When an on-screen message tells you that the registry has been successfully restored, restart the computer normally. Ed On Monday, October 8, 2007 at 10:23 pm, dark_lady01 wrote: >Thank you anyway to both of your suggestions. At the end of everything, I just reformatted >the darn thing and reinstalled everything. Somehow, the registry must have been corrupted >but I am up and running well now. ^_^ [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office - up and running well now Sunday, October 28, 2007 at 11:45 pm Posted by Joe Hepperle (73 messages posted) Hi Ed ! Just thought I'd holler at ya. Sounds like good advice that you gave but I'm sure you meant to post it somewhere else, since dark_lady01 has already solved her problem. Much of the advice you give to others is good, so I'm sure you meant to post this somewhere. I thought I'd let ya know so you can look for the still-existing problem where you probably intended to post this. Hers was a "Can't install Open Office..." problem, rather than a specific registry problem. (Notwithstanding that "gewg" and I wrote the words "registry" and "corrupt" more than a few times in our collective "groupthink", atempting to come to a solution for dark_lady01). dark_lady01 herself did not mention anything about registry problem or a corrupt registry. She wrote that her [OpenOffice] installed files were corrupted or incomplete. And she was getting Kernel error messages. When dark_lady01 wrote "...I am up and running well now..." I thought that was the end of it...? Did I miss something? Joe Hepperle ********************** ********************** On Sunday, October 28, 2007 at 1:55 pm, Ed wrote: >If the problem recurs, to recover from a simple registry corruption boot to DOS (using >a bootable floppy disk, e.g. from http://www.bootdisk.com) >and type the following at the C:\ prompt - > >SCANREG /RESTORE > >Note the space before the forward slash in this command. > >Follow the on-screen instructions, and try to restore the *oldest* backup of the >registry (they're listed by date) as that's the one with the best chance of being >from before the problem arose. > >By default Windows keeps 5 backup copies of the Windows Registry, so that you can >go back to before the problem arose. > >When an on-screen message tells you that the registry has been successfully restored, >restart the computer normally. > >Ed > > > > > [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Can't install Open Office - up and running well now Thursday, November 1, 2007 at 9:08 pm Posted by Ed (741 messages posted) No, I didn't mean to post it somewhere else. I was fooled into thinking she had a registry problem! And just meant for her to have another potential solution if the registry fault should unhappily recur. Ed On Sunday, October 28, 2007 at 10:45 pm, Joe Hepperle wrote: > >Hi Ed ! > >Just thought I'd holler at ya. Sounds like good advice that you gave but I'm sure >you meant to post it somewhere else, since dark_lady01 has already solved >her problem. Much of the advice you give to others is good, so I'm sure you meant >to post this somewhere. I thought I'd let ya know so you can look for the still-existing >problem where you probably intended to post this. > >Hers was a "Can't install Open Office..." problem, rather than a specific registry >problem. (Notwithstanding that "gewg" and I wrote the words "registry" and "corrupt" >more than a few times in our collective "groupthink", atempting to come to a solution >for dark_lady01). > >dark_lady01 herself did not mention anything about registry problem or a corrupt >registry. She wrote that her [OpenOffice] installed files were corrupted or incomplete. >And she was getting Kernel error messages. > >When dark_lady01 wrote "...I am up and running well now..." I thought that >was the end of it...? > >Did I miss something? > >Joe Hepperle > >********************** >********************** > > > [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Good Job Ed! Friday, November 2, 2007 at 12:10 am Posted by Joe Hepperle (73 messages posted) Hi Ed! Oh, well in that case, Good Job Ed! Joe Hepperle ******************************** ******************************** On Thursday, November 1, 2007 at 8:08 pm, Ed wrote: >No, I didn't mean to post it somewhere else. > >I was fooled into thinking she had a registry problem! And just meant for her to >have another potential solution if the registry fault should unhappily recur. > >Ed [Reply or follow-up to this message] Tip: Use one of the [Reply or follow-up to this message] links above to add a message to this thread Search this forum Start a new thread on a different subject Report abuse of the forum Return to the Windows 98 Discussion Forum