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re: Win98 and Hard Disc Partitions Friday, October 19, 2007 at 9:54 am Posted by Ed (741 messages posted) I strongly recommend copying the hard disk (e.g. using Norton's Ghost program) onto a new hard disk, before making any changes. Secondly, it is extremely dangerous to use FDISK.EXE for any function, where the hard disk has data on it. I suggest using the program PARTITION MANAGER, or some other non-Microsoft utility, to make any modifications to the disk structure. Some computer manufacturers (e.g. Compaq) use small non-DOS partitions in their hard disks, to store special utility programs, for data safety. It is unwise to delete such partitions, because they contain the manufacturer's intended diagnostic tools for the disk. Therefore, do not simply assume that the partition is there by reason of some error. Did you check for its presence before you started your alterations? The PRI DOS (Primary DOS) partition is normally the main partition, and would ordinarily be drive C:, but in your case Drive C: is a 2GB non-DOS partition. So your existing Drive C: is a non-DOS partition? And you are planning to use FDISK, a DOS utility, on it? Do you have a death wish?? Also, Seagate disk diagnostics should not be used on a Western Digital disk. Go get yourself some Western Digital diagnostics programs, from their website, and see what they report. You will get no useful results on a FAT32 disk from the program "Readntfs", as there are no NTFS partitions on a FAT32 disk (if it genuinely is FAT32). So whatever it says is irrelevent. In any case, most hard disks will have 8 MB of unused space, which is neither here nor there on an 18+ GB disk. No partitioning ever fully uses up all the space. And some software leaves the "test cylinder" unformatted anyway. So a tiny 8 MB of free space is quite normal, even if it's being misreported as a partition. I don't actually understand how Windows 98 can boot, if your Drive C: is a non-DOS partition. Nor do I understand how you can have 18GB of data in a 2GB partition. Presumably, you have "forgotten to mention" that you use disk compression software? Given this morass of conflicting and incomplete information, it would certainly NOT be safe to make any changes to your disk. Ed On Friday, October 19, 2007 at 9:01 am, Alan wrote: >I have a similar problem to that recounted by Jonathan > >(see http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/win98/t1189512931/) > >I too have an unwanted partition and wonder whether I can safely use FDISK to remove >it. > >After an attempt to install Win98SE on top of a previous Win98 installation I find >I have a second partition on one of my physical hard discs, a Western Digital 40GB >drive. The disc now has a 1st partition which FDISK says is "non DOS", about 2GB, >with no logical drive letter; and a 2nd partition which FDISK says is "PRI DOS", >about 4MB, and assigned the logical drive letter D:. > >The Win98SE installation failed because the version I have is not for upgrade but >new installation only so I re-installed Win98. Now Win98 lists a D: drive in Windows >Explorer or My Computer but cannot access it. DOS cannot access it either. > >I have run Seagate disc diagnostic tools which find no error in the disc nor its >file structure (FAT32) and correctly reports about 18GB used on the disc. > >I have also run a freeware utility called "Readntfs" which reports that there is >an unused second partition of 8MB on my Primary Master drive! FDISK does not find >this one. > >So, will it be safe to delete the unwanted partition on my Western Digital drive, >and if I do this will I regain the ability to access the data on the second partition? >Is it safer to use (say) Boot It Next Generation to delete the partition, rather >than FDISK? > >Incidentally, to answer a question posed by gewg, 7Tools Partition Manager demo version >allows all functions to be tried out in a "virtual pre-execution" but not actually >applid to make physical changes to the disc (according to the information shown when >dowloaded, installed and launched). [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Win98 and Hard Disc Partitions - more details Friday, October 19, 2007 at 10:50 am Posted by Alan (16 messages posted) Hi Ed, and thanks for your reply. I failed to make everything absolutely clear, please accept my apologies! The first thing to note is that I have three physical drives on the PC - the C: (5GB) drive is fine, and holds the OS (Win98). The other two drives were set up for data (D: drive - 40GB) and for programs (E: drive - 10GB). My problems have arisen since trying to install Win98SE on C: - an action which seems to have made changes to D:. I'm aware of the "hidden" partitions used by Dell, etc. but there is no such partition on my C: drive, which I partitioned (making a single partition) and formatted when I first put Win98 on it (FDISK identifies this as PRI DOS and it is assigned logical drive letter C:). Similarly there were only single partitions on each of the other drives - until the failed Win98SE installation. The Win98SE disc was an OEM disc so it is quite possible that it started by partitioning the drive to put manufacturer-specific files there - but I don't understand why it wrote to my D: drive. As far as using Seagate diagnostics is concerned; I had the tools to hand, and they provide gneric tests as well as specific ones for Seagate drives and I have every confidence in the results they've given me; but of course if I can find any WD tools to do a similar test I shall use them. But I'm pretty certain now that my data are intact, the problem lies with partitioning, so I just (just?) need to get the partitioning sorted out (!). Hence my question about the risks involved in using FDISK to delete a partition that I don't want and I don't believe contains anything that I need to keep. On your other points: >I don't actually understand how Windows 98 can boot, if your Drive C: is a non-DOS partition. < see above: Win98 is on my logical C: drive which is on another physical drive. >Nor do I understand how you can have 18GB of data in a 2GB partition. Presumably, you have "forgotten to mention" that you use disk compression software? < No compression, the 2GB partition is the new rogue one on my 40GB drive; the data is presumably in the remaining 38GB partition, which FDISK reports as having a size of 4MB. Thanks for the suggestion about using Ghost to make a backup - would you expect it to work, given that most things I've pointed at the disc fail to find anything there with the exception of the seagate utilities? Alan [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Win98 and Hard Disc Partitions Tuesday, October 23, 2007 at 12:03 am Posted by bob wells (1636 messages posted) Fdisk will safely remove the Partition, but all you will have is 2GB unallocated space. FDISK CANNOT be used on any partition, for any reason, other than checking the status of the Partition without, TOTAL LOSS OF DATA. You cannot use FDISK to merge PARTITIONS. Your EXTRA Partition did not come from a failed installation of Windows on Drive C:\ unless C:\ did not have enough space for the OS files. You would have gotten an error message if enough space was not available during set-up of the OS. Copy the contents of the D:\ drive to other media/Drive, then use fdisk to partition and format the D:\ drive, and copy the data back to D:\ AGAIN, Running FDISK will DESTROY ALL DATA on the Partition/Drive. IT cannot make un-accessable data, accessable again. BW There's nothing to learn from someone who already agrees with you. _________________________________________________________ On Friday, October 19, 2007 at 9:01 am, Alan wrote: >I have a similar problem to that recounted by Jonathan > >(see http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/win98/t1189512931/) > >I too have an unwanted partition and wonder whether I can safely use FDISK to remove >it. > >After an attempt to install Win98SE on top of a previous Win98 installation I find >I have a second partition on one of my physical hard discs, a Western Digital 40GB >drive. The disc now has a 1st partition which FDISK says is "non DOS", about 2GB, >with no logical drive letter; and a 2nd partition which FDISK says is "PRI DOS", >about 4MB, and assigned the logical drive letter D:. > >The Win98SE installation failed because the version I have is not for upgrade but >new installation only so I re-installed Win98. Now Win98 lists a D: drive in Windows >Explorer or My Computer but cannot access it. DOS cannot access it either. > >I have run Seagate disc diagnostic tools which find no error in the disc nor its >file structure (FAT32) and correctly reports about 18GB used on the disc. > >I have also run a freeware utility called "Readntfs" which reports that there is >an unused second partition of 8MB on my Primary Master drive! FDISK does not find >this one. > >So, will it be safe to delete the unwanted partition on my Western Digital drive, >and if I do this will I regain the ability to access the data on the second partition? >Is it safer to use (say) Boot It Next Generation to delete the partition, rather >than FDISK? > >Incidentally, to answer a question posed by gewg, 7Tools Partition Manager demo version >allows all functions to be tried out in a "virtual pre-execution" but not actually >applid to make physical changes to the disc (according to the information shown when >dowloaded, installed and launched). [Reply or follow-up to this message] Resolved? - Win98 and Hard Disc Partitions Tuesday, October 23, 2007 at 9:04 am Posted by Alan (16 messages posted) Hi Bob, Thanks for your response. I haven't done anything about the rogue partitions (yet), because it seems to be unnecessary, the "problem" part of it having gone away... I have now installed BootIt on a second partition on my primary master physical drive, so that I could inspect (and if desired, alter) the partitions. After re-formatting the first partition on this drive I have installed Windows XP Home SP2 and this becomes my C: drive (still using FAT32). When I look at the drives with BootIt, my second physical drive (which is the secondary master) shows two partitions, the first being 2GB and having a file system identified as "EZ Drive"; the second being 4MB and FAT16. On the screen for this drive it says "errors exist". When I start Windows XP it assigns drive letter E: to the 2GB first partition on this drive and all my files and folders are visible; under properties WinXP says this is a FAT32 partition. So I can now use the drive OK, and it looks as though BootIt is not reading the MBR correctly. However, if I boot to floppy and run FDISK, I find that it too shows an anomolous description for the drive - in this case it identifies a first 2GB partition as "Non DOS" and a second 4MB partition as "PRI DOS" (and assigns a drive letter to it). Could all this be something to do with the way a drive of capacity >32GB has to be prepared to be accessible to older OS's like Win98? My current plan of attack is to copy everything from the drive onto a backup, then reformat and copy the files back again. Does anyone have any views on: (a) Why should FDISK report the partitions wrongly? (b) How does WinXP manage to read the drive? (c) Why does BootIt also report the partitions wrongly? (d) Is there something else i can use to examine the drive and repair it if necessary? Incidentally, I have tried Western Digital Data Lifeguard Diagnostics and there isn't anything which examines the file structure, etc. On Tuesday, October 23, 2007 at 12:03 am, bob wells wrote: >Fdisk will safely remove the Partition, but all you will have is 2GB unallocated >space. I see, so there is no benefit in doing this unless I can remove both partitions and create a new (larger) one - which I can't do with FDISK until the data has been backed up. >FDISK CANNOT be used on any partition, for any reason, other than checking the status >of the Partition without, TOTAL LOSS OF DATA. > >You cannot use FDISK to merge PARTITIONS. Allegedly, BootIt can do this without loss of data - but I'm not going to risk it. >Your EXTRA Partition did not come from a failed installation of Windows on Drive >C:\ unless C:\ did not have enough space for the OS files. > >You would have gotten an error message if enough space was not available during set-up >of the OS. It looks like a mystery which will remain unsolved? >Copy the contents of the D:\ drive to other media/Drive, then use fdisk to partition >and format the D:\ drive, and copy the data back to D:\ > Will do. >AGAIN, Running FDISK will DESTROY ALL DATA on the Partition/Drive. IT cannot make >un-accessable data, accessable again. > Many thanks for the clear warning. >BW ___________________________ [Reply or follow-up to this message] re: Win98 and Hard Disc Partitions - more details Tuesday, October 23, 2007 at 10:18 am Posted by Ed (741 messages posted) Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I was off having a hard think about this! As you have more than one hard disk on your system, you may have "confused" the program you installed Win98 with. It may not have expected to find anything other than a single disk with a single partition on it - especially if it was older software dating back to 1998. And it's no good saying that manufacturers' CDs don't do weird partitioning tricks of their own. I've seen it happen! I know it happens!! FDISK is a program that uses odd rules to work out which drive letter to assign to which partition. And it can give unexpected results if you use it on a disk that has more than one partition on it. So the results you think you're getting don't necessarily mean what you think they mean. Double check them! FDISK is definitely not safe to use in a non-standard situation. It's a very crude tool, and very user-unfriendly too. For diagnosis purposes, try reading the disk with PARTITION MAGIC. Don't make any changes to the disk until you've copied all the data off it. I suggest GHOST as the surest and safest way to do this. Ed On Friday, October 19, 2007 at 10:50 am, Alan wrote: >Hi Ed, and thanks for your reply. > >I failed to make everything absolutely clear, please accept my apologies! > >The first thing to note is that I have three physical drives on the PC - the C: (5GB) >drive is fine, and holds the OS (Win98). The other two drives were set up for data >(D: drive - 40GB) and for programs (E: drive - 10GB). > >My problems have arisen since trying to install Win98SE on C: - an action which seems >to have made changes to D:. > >I'm aware of the "hidden" partitions used by Dell, etc. but there is no such partition >on my C: drive, which I partitioned (making a single partition) and formatted when >I first put Win98 on it (FDISK identifies this as PRI DOS and it is assigned logical >drive letter C:). Similarly there were only single partitions on each of the other >drives - until the failed Win98SE installation. The Win98SE disc was an OEM disc >so it is quite possible that it started by partitioning the drive to put manufacturer-specific >files there - but I don't understand why it wrote to my D: drive. > >As far as using Seagate diagnostics is concerned; I had the tools to hand, and they >provide gneric tests as well as specific ones for Seagate drives and I have every >confidence in the results they've given me; but of course if I can find any WD tools >to do a similar test I shall use them. But I'm pretty certain now that my data are >intact, the problem lies with partitioning, so I just (just?) need to get the partitioning >sorted out (!). Hence my question about the risks involved in using FDISK to delete >a partition that I don't want and I don't believe contains anything that I need to >keep. > [Reply or follow-up to this message] Resolved - Win98 and Hard Disc Partitions Saturday, October 27, 2007 at 2:22 am Posted by Alan (16 messages posted) OK, this query can be closed, with thanks to Bob and Ed for their contributions. I decided not to use FDISK but rather to use the Western Digital tools since it is a WD drive. I copied everything from the "suspect" drive and examined it with Western Digital Data Lifeguard. No problems found. I re-formatted it using Data Lifeguard as a single FAT32 partition of 40GB. Returning to Windows (I have now installed WinXP (see my earlier post) rather than Win98) it was NOT accessible - Windows reported a logical drive but claimed it as not formatted. So I returned to WD Data Lifeguard and re-partitioned it into an 8GB volume and a 32GB volume - on returning to WinXP, Windows was quite happy with both of these as new logical drives. So I assume the problems were all caused by my BIOS not supporting a drive of greater than 32GB? I now understand that when I first installed the disc this limitation was overcome with a special conversion table to allow large volume addressing (WD "EZ Drive") in a small extra partition. This may have been damaged at some time such as when I once installed a Linux OS, or simply may not be compatible with later versions of Windows. I therefore *hope* that the problem is now resolved, but cannot find anything relevant in for example the WD site FAQ. On the plus side this has forced me to buy an external 320GB USB drive and now I can make regular backups. Alan [Reply or follow-up to this message] Tip: Use one of the [Reply or follow-up to this message] links above to add a message to this thread Search this forum Start a new thread on a different subject Report abuse of the forum Return to the Windows 98 Discussion Forum