|
|
|
Twilight Zone type of problem with games, IDE HD and mouse wheel! :)
Showing all messages in thread #1113854014
Windows XP Annoyances Discussion Forum
The following are all of the messages in this thread (8 in all), shown in chronological order. Click any message subject to view that message by itself or to view the thread hierarchy.
|
Twilight Zone type of problem with games, IDE HD and mouse wheel! :)
Monday, April 18, 2005 at 12:53 pm
Posted by MoonQuake
(5 messages posted)
Hey guys, here's the Twilight Zone question of the year and I haven't found ANY answer
by googling about it:
When I play 3D games or when I scroll some large web pages my secondary IDE HD spins
down then up then down etc... and my mouse wheel messes up sometimes in the process.
I can sometimes even MAKE my HD spin down/up by scrolling the mouse wheel! There's
definately a link! This problem used to affect both my HDs paralysing my system,
but then I changed my motherboard, and now it's doing it again only on my sec. HD
that is, I must say, disabled in my Hardware profile. Any ideas?
What could be linking my mouse with my HD and my playing games? Thanks -MQ
Specs:
Intel P4 2.4 overclocked to 2.88ghz (1mb cache)(prob. occurs even when system is
not OCed)
Motherboard: P4P800 SE
1 gig good DDR RAM
WinXP pro sp2
Primary HD: 120Gb WD hard disk
Secondary HD: 40Gb Maxtor hard disk
Video: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
Audio: Soundblaster audigy LE
What I tried to do so far with no luck:
-All software updates
-Changed IDE cables
-Changed motherboard/cpu
-Updated BIOS
-Updated VIA drivers
-Prayers :)
[Reply or follow-up to this message]
| |
re: Twilight Zone type of problem with games, IDE HD and mouse wheel! :)
Monday, April 18, 2005 at 7:29 pm
Posted by Jack Gulley
(5917 messages posted)
Gee. You listed the specifications and talked about every thing but the most logical
thing that is causing the problem!
The problem is your POWER SUPPLY and its +12v power distribution!
I bet you have a CD-RW and/or DVD/RW in there that forgot to mention. Plus a few
FANS and maybe some neon lights running off of +12v. But with two disk drives (and
maybe some CD/DVD drives) and all that hardware on a P4 processor, plus that Video
card, your system is going to draw a LOT of current at +12v. The "weak" point of
most cheap power supplies.
Here is what happens. When you roll the scroll wheel, the processor loads down
sending commands to the video graphics adapter to start scrolling the screen up/down.
This processor activity starts loading down the power supply some. The Graphics Processor
then goes into overdrive moving all that data around, and it in turn starts drawing
a large amount of current. That is why they get hot and have to have a fan. This
huge increase in load on the power supply forces it to redirect more of its power
to the critical +5v and the voltages to the processor, system board and video adapter.
Because the +12v is less critical and less regulated, input power is taken away
from it and shifted to the other voltages, causing the +12v to drop slightly. With
a slight lag, this voltage drop causes the fans and motors running off of it change
speed and in so doing, draw even more current on the +12v. On some machines you can
actually hear the power supply fan change speed when scrolling the screen up and
down this way. Actually what you are hearing is the change in beat frequency between
different speed fans. All this current draw takes the +12v down just a little more
and induces a little ripple on the +12v as the power supply struggles to recover
from the change in loads. After some delay, it recovers and is able to bring the
+12v back into regulation.
But guess what the most sensitive device in the system to +12v ripple is? You
guessed it, the disk drives. When they see the +12v drop to far and then ripple on
the voltage, they start cutting back their power draw on +12v, and the only way
they have to do this is cut back power to the motor control logic, which causes their
motors to spin down. It is normally the last drive (least used) drive that will start
to spin down first.
Now complicate this with the fact that most of the wires going to the disk drives
are too small of a gage and too long to carry current when there is ripple on it,
and most power supplies have several connections drawing current on each leg out
of it, no wonder the disk drives are spinning down.
If you look at the top of the line power supplies sold, they have a higher rated
maximum current on the +12v than do most other power supplies. In addition they usually
have only one connector that can plug in to a disk or CD-Rom drive per leg and have
more legs out for this, plus a heavier gage wires, so that current draw and ripple
are not such a problem.
OK, so what can you do? Well you could get a much better power supply, one rated
at a higher output with a lot more current (amps) on the +12v. And that has more
legs out of if for powering drives, fans, etc. The quality of power supplies is judged
more by their total weight than by their price. OR, you can try to make sure nothing
else (fans) is plugged into the legs going to the disk drive. You can turn off some
of the load on the +12v if you have neon lights in the box and extra fans. Maybe
even unplug a DVD or extra CD-RW drive. You can even help the power supply by using
a good quality power cable to it (instead of the cheap small gage wire ones that
come with some systems). And make sure it is plugged directly into a wall outlet
or heavy gage distribution box, and not hooked up through some cheap long extension
cord and switch box. A good quality UPS box sometimes helps as they usually have
heavy gage short cables.
[Reply or follow-up to this message]
|
re: Twilight Zone type of problem with games, IDE HD and mouse wheel! :)
Monday, April 18, 2005 at 8:27 pm
Posted by Falcon
(13489 messages posted)
That's something I'd like to see sometime. (Not on my computers though!) :-)
[Reply or follow-up to this message]
|
re: Twilight Zone type of problem with games, IDE HD and mouse wheel! :)
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 at 1:06 am
Posted by MoonQuake
(5 messages posted)
That's a nice and complete reply, Jack!
I never came close to the first line of your reply in term of help looking on google
or irc. Thanks
I forgot to mention my CD and DVD drives. :)
Thing is, I got a good PSU: Antec TruePower 450. I thought I was good with this.
Maybe it's the power cables like you said so I'll check all this.
So you say that I should have all my HD on separate cables? Cause I think I got both
HDs on the same cable, and both CD/DVd on another one.
I'll check this out and give you some news about it.
Last question: how could I send more juice to the 12v IF my mobo BIOS doesn't allow
me do it? And If I'm allowed to do so, how much of an increase should I look for?
Thanks a million!
MQ
------------------------------------------
On Monday, April 18, 2005 at 7:29 pm, Jack Gulley wrote:
>Gee. You listed the specifications and talked about every thing but the most
logical
>thing that is causing the problem!
> The problem is your POWER SUPPLY and its +12v power distribution!
> I bet you have a CD-RW and/or DVD/RW in there that forgot to mention. Plus a
few
>FANS and maybe some neon lights running off of +12v. But with two disk drives (and
>maybe some CD/DVD drives) and all that hardware on a P4 processor, plus that Video
>card, your system is going to draw a LOT of current at +12v. The "weak" point of
>most cheap power supplies.
> Here is what happens. When you roll the scroll wheel, the processor loads down
>sending commands to the video graphics adapter to start scrolling the screen up/down.
>This processor activity starts loading down the power supply some. The Graphics
Processor
>then goes into overdrive moving all that data around, and it in turn starts drawing
>a large amount of current. That is why they get hot and have to have a fan. This
>huge increase in load on the power supply forces it to redirect more of its power
>to the critical +5v and the voltages to the processor, system board and video adapter.
> Because the +12v is less critical and less regulated, input power is taken away
>from it and shifted to the other voltages, causing the +12v to drop slightly. With
>a slight lag, this voltage drop causes the fans and motors running off of it change
>speed and in so doing, draw even more current on the +12v. On some machines you
can
>actually hear the power supply fan change speed when scrolling the screen up and
>down this way. Actually what you are hearing is the change in beat frequency between
>different speed fans. All this current draw takes the +12v down just a little more
>and induces a little ripple on the +12v as the power supply struggles to recover
>from the change in loads. After some delay, it recovers and is able to bring the
>+12v back into regulation.
> But guess what the most sensitive device in the system to +12v ripple is? You
>guessed it, the disk drives. When they see the +12v drop to far and then ripple
on
>the voltage, they start cutting back their power draw on +12v, and the only way
>they have to do this is cut back power to the motor control logic, which causes
their
>motors to spin down. It is normally the last drive (least used) drive that will
start
>to spin down first.
> Now complicate this with the fact that most of the wires going to the disk drives
>are too small of a gage and too long to carry current when there is ripple on it,
>and most power supplies have several connections drawing current on each leg out
>of it, no wonder the disk drives are spinning down.
> If you look at the top of the line power supplies sold, they have a higher rated
>maximum current on the +12v than do most other power supplies. In addition they
usually
>have only one connector that can plug in to a disk or CD-Rom drive per leg and have
> more legs out for this, plus a heavier gage wires, so that current draw and ripple
>are not such a problem.
> OK, so what can you do? Well you could get a much better power supply, one rated
>at a higher output with a lot more current (amps) on the +12v. And that has more
>legs out of if for powering drives, fans, etc. The quality of power supplies is
judged
>more by their total weight than by their price. OR, you can try to make sure nothing
>else (fans) is plugged into the legs going to the disk drive. You can turn off some
>of the load on the +12v if you have neon lights in the box and extra fans. Maybe
>even unplug a DVD or extra CD-RW drive. You can even help the power supply by using
>a good quality power cable to it (instead of the cheap small gage wire ones that
>come with some systems). And make sure it is plugged directly into a wall outlet
>or heavy gage distribution box, and not hooked up through some cheap long extension
>cord and switch box. A good quality UPS box sometimes helps as they usually have
>heavy gage short cables.
[Reply or follow-up to this message]
|
re: Twilight Zone type of problem with games, IDE HD and mouse wheel! :)
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 at 2:26 am
Posted by MoonQuake
(5 messages posted)
Ok, here's my current status:
-I removed one of my CD roms
-I changed my power cables configuration: one cable powers 1 HD(sec.) and the videocard
- 1 powers the DVD and other HD(prim.). I got only 2 HD/CD power cables with 3 plugs
each. No fans plugged to these cables.
My HD spin down is even worse now, it occurs even when I drag/select icons in a window!
BIOS indicates that my 12v is running at around 12v
Sandra 2005 is indicating that my 12v is running at 15.50v!!! It was the same before
the setup change.
I'm confused.
I'll try another PSU cable and I'm reluctant to plug this straight into the wall
jack because of lightning strike hazard! :) I'll leave it plugged into my powerbar.
I'll try different cables configs also.
MQ
[Reply or follow-up to this message]
|
re: Twilight Zone type of problem with games, IDE HD and mouse wheel! :)
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 at 9:40 am
Posted by Jack Gulley
(5917 messages posted)
That power supply should be able to handle it without problems any way you plug
the drives. It sounds more like there might be something wrong with it's +12v. When
you took load off of it, the problem got worse? Reminds me of a problem that IBM
had with one of its early AT power supplies where they had to use loading resistors
on the 12v if there was no disk drives.
There might be something wrong with one of the devices. I have seen bad fans
cause noise, and even bad drives cause others to fail by creating ripple on the voltages.
I have one that will cause any other drive connected to shut down, but works fine
by itself. You would have to have a good scope to see that type of problem. You
may have to borrow a good digital volt meter and measure the voltage at the connector.
The voltage going too high (above 13.8v or 15% over) would cause problems with the
drives (them shutting down the motors to protect them from over voltage), and indicate
the power supply is going out of regulation under load. Also measuring on the AC
scale and getting anything other than 0v would indicate a bad ripple problem with
a bad capacitor.
It would be basically the same problem I described, but the load causing the +12v
to go too high because there is not a matching increase in current draw on it.
It sure sounds like there is a bad capacitor in the power supply and the only
way for you to tell is to try a different power supply.
One thing you can try, is plug everything in (CD drives, etc.) and add one or
two more fans if you have them. If that helps the problem, then start looking for
a replacement power supply.
[Reply or follow-up to this message]
|
re: Twilight Zone type of problem with games, IDE HD and mouse wheel! :)
Tuesday, April 19, 2005 at 1:14 pm
Posted by MoonQuake
(5 messages posted)
Hi Jack!
Made some more changes:
-Removed one of my case fans (I got a home fan blowing inside my case which keep
everything cool (CPU 39c / mobo 32c idle)) BTW, should I trust software like Sandra
2005 OR my bios for temperatures? Sandra tells me that some of my bios info might
be wrong sometimes...
-Put back both HD on same cable, got DVD and Ati Radeon on another.
-I was using my mouse and keyboard on USB ports, now I put them both on PS/2 ports.
Dunno if it helps on the 12v.
Now the spin down is occuring only during games and rarely while I navigate throught
windows.
I changed my power supply twice before. Once because I had an old 350w Antec PSU
and I upgraded, then after another upgrade I had to buy a replacement one because
another Antec 450w I bought seemed to have failed. (same HD symptoms only, on both
HDs thus killing my system files in the process)
You know what? The only part that's still there since my original configuration and
the begining of my spin down problem is my old Maxtor HD. Like you say, maybe this
device if failing on the 12v and maybe I should kick it out of the window!
I couldn't get rid of it last night when I tried to cut off things on the 12v, because
for some reason, even though it's my secondary HD, if I disable it from the BIOS
and unplug it, my primary HD (Prim. master jumper set) isn't recognized anymore.
Like it needed the Maxtor to run it...
Geez.
I'll try to definitely remove the Maxtor and see what happens.
Jack, could all this be the result of a bad powerbar or even a faulty wall jack/electric
current?
MQ
------------------------------------
On Tuesday, April 19, 2005 at 9:40 am, Jack Gulley wrote:
>That power supply should be able to handle it without problems any way you plug
>the drives. It sounds more like there might be something wrong with it's +12v. When
>you took load off of it, the problem got worse? Reminds me of a problem that IBM
>had with one of its early AT power supplies where they had to use loading resistors
>on the 12v if there was no disk drives.
> There might be something wrong with one of the devices. I have seen bad fans
>cause noise, and even bad drives cause others to fail by creating ripple on the
voltages.
> I have one that will cause any other drive connected to shut down, but works fine
>by itself. You would have to have a good scope to see that type of problem. You
>may have to borrow a good digital volt meter and measure the voltage at the connector.
>The voltage going too high (above 13.8v or 15% over) would cause problems with the
>drives (them shutting down the motors to protect them from over voltage), and indicate
>the power supply is going out of regulation under load. Also measuring on the AC
>scale and getting anything other than 0v would indicate a bad ripple problem with
>a bad capacitor.
> It would be basically the same problem I described, but the load causing the
+12v
>to go too high because there is not a matching increase in current draw on it.
> It sure sounds like there is a bad capacitor in the power supply and the only
>way for you to tell is to try a different power supply.
> One thing you can try, is plug everything in (CD drives, etc.) and add one or
>two more fans if you have them. If that helps the problem, then start looking for
>a replacement power supply.
[Reply or follow-up to this message]
|
re: Twilight Zone type of problem with games, IDE HD and mouse wheel! :)
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 at 7:22 pm
Posted by MoonQuake
(5 messages posted)
I finally got rid of my sec. hard drive.
Stability seems to be fine... for now.
Looks like it was the faulty Maxtor HD...
Thanks for your help.
MQ
On Tuesday, April 19, 2005 at 1:14 pm, MoonQuake wrote:
>Hi Jack!
>Made some more changes:
>
>-Removed one of my case fans (I got a home fan blowing inside my case which keep
>everything cool (CPU 39c / mobo 32c idle)) BTW, should I trust software like Sandra
>2005 OR my bios for temperatures? Sandra tells me that some of my bios info might
>be wrong sometimes...
>
>-Put back both HD on same cable, got DVD and Ati Radeon on another.
>
>-I was using my mouse and keyboard on USB ports, now I put them both on PS/2 ports.
>Dunno if it helps on the 12v.
>
>
>Now the spin down is occuring only during games and rarely while I navigate throught
>windows.
>
>I changed my power supply twice before. Once because I had an old 350w Antec PSU
>and I upgraded, then after another upgrade I had to buy a replacement one because
>another Antec 450w I bought seemed to have failed. (same HD symptoms only, on both
>HDs thus killing my system files in the process)
>
>You know what? The only part that's still there since my original configuration
and
>the begining of my spin down problem is my old Maxtor HD. Like you say, maybe this
>device if failing on the 12v and maybe I should kick it out of the window!
>
>I couldn't get rid of it last night when I tried to cut off things on the 12v, because
>for some reason, even though it's my secondary HD, if I disable it from the BIOS
>and unplug it, my primary HD (Prim. master jumper set) isn't recognized anymore.
>Like it needed the Maxtor to run it...
>
>Geez.
>
>I'll try to definitely remove the Maxtor and see what happens.
>
>
>Jack, could all this be the result of a bad powerbar or even a faulty wall jack/electric
>current?
>
>MQ
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
[Reply or follow-up to this message]
| |
| |
Tip: Use one of the [Reply or follow-up to this message] links above to add a message to this thread
| |
Return to the Windows XP Discussion Forum
|
|
|
|
